Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Blair Enns, founder of Win Without Pitching and a leading authority on selling creative and consulting expertise. Blair shares insights from his new book, The Four Conversations, which distills decades of agency wisdom into a clear roadmap for moving from pitching and price-haggling to confidently leading client relationships. Listeners will discover how to shift from vendor to trusted advisor, raise closing rates, price based on value, and master the four pivotal conversations that define every successful client engagement.

About the Guest

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching and the author of several acclaimed books on agency sales, pricing, and positioning. Over the past two decades, Blair has helped thousands of agencies and consultancies around the world move away from free pitching and price wars toward leading client engagements and charging for their expertise. His latest book, The Four Conversations, offers a practical framework for mastering the most crucial moments in every client relationship.

Actionable Insights

• Most agencies close far fewer deals than they think—often just 25%. Doubling your close rate and raising prices by 20% can dramatically improve profitability.
• The “four conversations” framework: Probative (demonstrate expertise), Qualifying (vet fit for both parties), Value (define value to be created and price accordingly), Closing (help the client select and commit to a path forward).
• Selling expertise is not about convincing or manipulating—it’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.
• True leadership in sales means moving from statements about yourself to questions about the client, and from eagerness for the work to discernment and selectivity.
• Pricing should begin with a value conversation—anchoring fees to outcomes, not just deliverables or time spent.
• Productizing your service delivery is compatible with pricing each client based on value, not a fixed menu.
• To move from vendor to trusted advisor, adopt the “expert’s mantra”: I am the expert, I am the prize, I’m on a mission to help, and I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

• 01:16 – The True Cost of Letting Clients Lead
  Blair breaks down the impact of poor sales practices on close rates and pricing power.
• 04:45 – The Four Conversations Model
  An overview of the probative, qualifying, value, and closing conversations that shape every client relationship.
• 06:23 – Selling as Guiding, Not Convincing
  Why selling expertise is about facilitating clients’ choices, not talking them into a decision.
• 07:47 – From Proving Brilliance to Asking Questions
  The shift from statements to questions is at the heart of expert selling.
• 13:37 – Value-Based Pricing in Action
  Blair walks through starting the pricing conversation with outcomes, not just deliverables.
• 20:47 – The Expert’s Mantra
  A mindset framework for making the leap from vendor to trusted advisor.

Pulled Quotes

“Selling is not talking people into things. It’s about guiding, questioning, and facilitating the client’s best decision.”
— Blair Enns

“I am the expert, I am the prize. I’m on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. All will not follow—and that’s okay.”
— Blair Enns

Resources