John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Dr. Debra Clary. She’s a leadership strategist, narrative scientist, researcher, and executive coach with more than three decades of experience leading and transforming organizations, especially fortune 50 companies, including Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniels, and Humana. She holds a doctorate in leadership and organization development from the George Washington university. And we’re going to talk about her latest book.

the curiosity curve of leaders guide to growth and transformation through bold questions. So Deborah, welcome to the show.

Debra Clary (00:37.905)

Thank you, John, for having me.

John Jantsch (00:39.906)

I love to explore people’s words and people’s bios. So what does a narrative scientist do?

Debra Clary (00:46.461)

Storyteller. You like it?

John Jantsch (00:47.822)

Well, I do, but where’s the science in that?

Debra Clary (00:55.916)

Well, there’s science in telling a story. There’s actually a formula on how you’re able to connect with people.

John Jantsch (01:04.98)

So you’ve had a, I only read a bit of your bio, but did I see somewhere that you were an aspiring standup comedian?

Debra Clary (01:14.392)

I actually started right out of school being a standup comic and my father came to one of my shows and after the show he said, well, I want to talk to you about it. And I thought, well, he’s going to say, look, you’re in business school, why are you doing this? And he said to me, I love you, but you’re not that funny.

John Jantsch (01:15.647)

You

John Jantsch (01:32.312)

Alright.

John Jantsch (01:38.183)

Debra Clary (01:39.421)

which was true. But it was great training ground for to be able to get on my feet and to talk to large audiences.

John Jantsch (01:47.862)

Yeah, I picked up on that because I there seemed to be a bit of a trend in the speaker world in the consultant world of doing like improv and stand up. And so I wonder if there’s really a real tie to that actually being a great training skill instead of just something fun to do.

Debra Clary (01:58.637)

Yes.

Debra Clary (02:05.393)

Absolutely. You probably have heard of Second City out of Chicago, right? Well, Second City actually has a division that goes into organizations and teaches leaders how to think on your feet, how to build other people up. And when I was at my last role, we brought them in several times to help us.

John Jantsch (02:09.696)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (02:15.735)

yeah, I’ve seen that.

John Jantsch (02:24.91)

Yeah, think like half of Saturday Night Live’s cast comes out Second City. Yeah. So let’s get to the book. Curiosity is a word that actually got my attention because I’ve often said that that’s my superpower is that what’s really kept me in the game. I’ve been doing this for 30 years. So much has changed, all this new technology. And I always tell people, I’m just always curious about how stuff works.

Debra Clary (02:31.72)

Yeah, it’s a great training ground.

John Jantsch (02:53.196)

You talk about it as more of a mindset rather than necessarily something we’re just born with. Would that be fair to say?

Debra Clary (03:01.483)

Well, it’s actually both in the sense that we come into the world knowing nothing other than we’re hungry or we’re cold. And as toddlers, we ask 298 questions a day. This is based on work by neuroscience out of London. But by the time we’re adults, we might ask five questions a day. And that might be, where are we going to dinner? Are we eating out? Are we eating in? Those types of things. And the reason is that we are taught to be

in curious. We are taught that children are to be seen and not heard. You know, don’t open Pandora’s box, curiosity killed the cat, all of those things that we’re taught to be in curious. And then we go into the university and we get a degree and then we come out and we’re working in that field. And then we’re being paid for that expertise. And by the way, we have time constraints. And so all of those things add into like what happened to us.

John Jantsch (03:55.725)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (03:59.756)

Yeah, yeah. Well, so if you’re going to call it a skill, is it measurable?

Debra Clary (04:06.059)

Yes. So when we originally did our research, I had commissioned a team of researchers out of MIT to study one thing for me. And that was, what is the relatedness between leadership performance and curiosity? And they said, well, we’re going to have to go deeper on that. I said, let’s start with that hypothesis. And when they came back and said, there’s a direct correlation between a leader’s level of curiosity and the performance of their team.

Then we started going deeper and we learned that curiosity can be learned, it can be taught. And so we created the curiosity curve assessment. So we can actually measure the current state of an individual, a team or an organization’s level of curiosity, because we know it can be improved.

John Jantsch (04:54.776)

So one of the things, especially with leaders, even worse the higher you go in leadership, is that there tends to be a mindset, not all, but with some of like, I have to have all the answers. That’s why I’m here, right? They look to me to have all the answers, right or wrong. I think they take that approach. Is that one of the biggest hurdles to at least acting curious?

Debra Clary (05:20.895)

Yes. So it’s an outdated model where leaders have to have all the answers. You know, most leaders arrive there because they’ve probably come out of those roles and they know, they know what to, you know, they become an expert in that, but now they’re in a leadership role. And if we, when, somebody comes in and has a problem, we are prone to tell them what to do, right? That’s efficient. And by the way, we need to have all the answers, but the

John Jantsch (05:46.478)

Right, yep.

Debra Clary (05:50.627)

best leaders are those that focus on the individual and not the problem. And so you’re asking them a series of questions that leads them to understanding how they can solve it on their own. You’re building their confidence and you’re building their critical thinking skills. So leadership is about playing the long game, not the short game.

John Jantsch (06:09.836)

Yeah, I mean, the phrase that comes to mind to me is instead of just giving people to fish, right? You’re going to teach them to fish by just stepping back and saying, I don’t know, what would you do? I mean, can you start that simple?

Debra Clary (06:15.788)

Yeah, that’s it.

Debra Clary (06:23.67)

Well, I probably would say something like, well, tell me what you’ve been thinking about, right? And get them to have a conversation. And then things like, are there other problems that are similar to this that you’ve solved and what worked in that situation, right? Is helping them dig deeper and understanding that they can solve it or together you can solve it. But I’m not going to give you the answer because I don’t have all the answers.

John Jantsch (06:28.546)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:50.062)

Do you have or do you at least, obviously every business, every situation is maybe a little different, but particularly in kind of a like status type of meeting, do you have a formula for how you should restructure that?

Debra Clary (07:05.142)

Yeah, and I actually write about that in my book, John. And it’s one about, you you set the agenda. And when you get your team together, you say, these are the things we’re going to cover. Is there anything that’s not on here that we want to make sure we cover? So you’re leaving it open to what else needs to happen. The other thing is, you in those meetings, encourage people to ask questions and encourage people to challenge what’s been said. Like get really comfortable with being challenged.

That’s when you have a culture of curiosity.

John Jantsch (07:38.742)

I mean, does it kind of change, not just change the way that the meeting goes and the way that people act, but does it have the potential to actually change the entire culture at an organization?

Debra Clary (07:51.203)

Absolutely, absolutely. So culture and leadership is synonymous. So goes the leader, so goes the culture. And so the work that I do is mostly around the senior executives, know, the C-suite, because I recognize that when you make change at the top, then you can see greater change throughout the organization. So if you want a curious culture, the C-suite needs to be modeling it.

John Jantsch (08:04.91)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:10.958)

Sure, right.

John Jantsch (08:17.57)

What are some of the misconceptions? I’m sure that curiosity to some people sounds like a pretty soft subject. So what are some of the things you have to really fight against when you say, this is really the secret?

Debra Clary (08:30.816)

Yeah, so when I started that way as being skeptical myself, I had the hypothesis that curiosity might be missing in the workplace, but it was a hypothesis. And as a scientist, I need data. So I brought the data together. when I’m talking with CEOs, someone has recommended me to a CEO and same thing like curiosity, come on. And then I say, I thought the same thing, you know, and having spent four decades navigating complex systems,

John Jantsch (08:34.936)

Okay. Yeah.

Debra Clary (08:59.446)

Yeah, I kind of have that doubt too, but now we have the data. And so I take them through the data and then you can start to see like their eyes are lighting up and they’re like, they’re starting to make connections. So for me, you know, I move forward with data.

John Jantsch (09:18.35)

So I find that curiosity takes empathy, takes self-awareness, takes compassion. And a lot, I’m sure you also have leaders like, don’t have time for that.

Debra Clary (09:18.903)

Mm.

Debra Clary (09:32.298)

Absolutely. And I would add something to your list of attributes. There is one around forgiveness. You know, when I’m asking myself questions and it’s, some might start off like, wow, you should have known differently or you should have done something different. And then I say forgiveness and I’ll say, okay, what would I do now? Like what’s my next move in order to either correct it or to build on something.

John Jantsch (09:33.038)

John Jantsch (09:54.68)

So, do you have a path for, because I suspect that it’s going to be habit forming too, right? I mean, it has to just almost be a reflex in certain situations, start curious, right? So, is there a training path that, you know, in the next 30 days, if you do these things, you know, you’ll become, it’ll become more habit forming?

Debra Clary (10:17.217)

Yeah, absolutely. even curiosity is a muscle. We all have it, but we’ve stopped using it. Maybe like our abdomen, you know, our stomach muscles there, we’ve, we’ve stopped using them and you can get them back. so when I’m working with executive teams, I start with the curiosity assessment. I like to know where, what’s our starting point, right? And so there are four factors that we measure on the curiosity curve. And when we get an understanding of

at the individual level, but at the team level, that’s when we can make real progress. But it does start with the intention of we want a culture of curiosity because we know it drives performance. So we’re anchoring around performance and the intention of creating this type of culture.

John Jantsch (11:06.488)

So are there a handful of bold questions that every leader should be asking their teams right now? I mean, are there any specific examples?

Debra Clary (11:17.945)

Yeah, you know, it certainly depends on the situation, but for a generic reason, I love questions that are like, what’s not being said, right? What might we be missing here? Does anyone have a different point of view? You know, really creating an environment where people know I’m asking questions because your opinion matters. Your point of view matters to me.

John Jantsch (11:43.599)

Of course, the other end of that though is you have to be willing to accept that the opinion might actually be good, bad, or indifferent. You have to actually be open to not just encouraging people to make suggestions, but actually seriously considering them and maybe even taking action.

Debra Clary (11:51.115)

Absolutely.

Debra Clary (12:00.715)

Absolutely. In the best environments I’ve been in, when somebody brings up something, it might not be quite right, but then somebody builds on it and somebody else builds on it, just like an improv. And then you’ve now have the collective thinking of that team. That’s the beauty of someone coming up with something and you might challenge it, you might build on it, but definitely you’re creating the culture of curiosity.

John Jantsch (12:09.9)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (12:25.548)

Yeah, and we’ve probably all been in situations where leader, you know, is not open to those. so everybody just everybody just shuts up, right? It’s like, bother? I’ve got a great idea, but why bother? Right.

Debra Clary (12:34.617)

That’s right. Absolutely. Well, you might be familiar with last year, Gallup put out their engagement report in the history of measuring engagement. They’ve never seen it so low. And particularly the millennials who make up 35 % of the workforce and they’re from the age of 29 to 40, they’re 65 % disengaged.

John Jantsch (12:46.705)

wow.

Debra Clary (12:57.293)

Now, why is this a problem? Well, the obvious one is because they’re not being productive. But the another one is this is the group of people that we would be developing to go into senior roles in the next decade. And they’re signaling to us, we’re not interested. So we brought together a group of millennials to do a focus group because we wanted to get underneath what’s going on. And, you know, the scientists asked it in a better way than I’m going to do it. But I like, what’s your source of unhappiness?

John Jantsch (13:25.518)

Mm-hmm.

Debra Clary (13:26.253)

what they said surprised us. They said, my leader doesn’t know me and doesn’t care to know me. And so the follow-up questions were like, they don’t know you’re like what you do personally, or like you have a dog or you like to run marathons. They go, no, no, they don’t know what I can contribute to the problem, know, solving the problem. I have most of the information, but I’m least consulted. Now that can be solved by leaders shifting the way in which they interact with their teams.

John Jantsch (13:32.75)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:50.529)

Mm-hmm.

Debra Clary (13:56.258)

It’s about asking questions of what do you think we should do? Do you have any experience that’s parallel to solving this problem? I would love to hear what you have to say.

John Jantsch (13:56.364)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:07.34)

So I’m curious in your doing this work, has there been, of course, everybody wants the home run, right? Has there been like a single question that changed the outcome of an initiative that you’ve been a part

Debra Clary (14:21.461)

It was in an executive meeting and the organization, I was a part of this organization and they were moving into a new territory, a new discipline, if you will. So they were in an insurance company that now was going into actually delivering care. And the people that were in that room were used to the insurance company, a transactional company.

And we had one individual that was starting up this division who came from that discipline and they were, they were arguing about the way in which it could get done. And I realized they weren’t even using the same definition for what it meant. So I pause and I said, everyone, let’s take a second here. know, Brian, can you describe, define what your, what is the meaning of that word? And then I did for the other individual, they weren’t even talking about the same thing.

Now it’s just each of them were trying to present their case. So while, know, why we needed to invest in this or why we needed to pull back on this. And I realized we’re not even trying to solve the same problem. That was an, that was an, an opener. And that, you know, that comes for me, just I’m listening to what they’re saying and realizing they’re not, they’re not trying to solve the same problem.

John Jantsch (15:27.862)

You

John Jantsch (15:38.886)

Sometimes being the outsider is the only way you can actually hear that because you’re like, don’t know what you guys are talking about. So let’s flip that around then. Can you share maybe a moment when a lack of curiosity was clearly causing setbacks?

Debra Clary (15:46.349)

Yeah, absolutely.

Debra Clary (15:58.654)

And we see that every day in organizations in the sense that, you know, leaders feel, mean, first off, have, you know, huge revenue goals to hear clear objectives to hit, and they have time constraints on that. And what I see playing in and out every day is that leaders just go to do directing and not exploring.

John Jantsch (16:00.568)

Gosh.

Debra Clary (16:25.195)

and because they think it’s the most efficient way. And it probably is efficient in the short term, but not in the long term, right? And what happens is people begin to shut down and no longer offer opinions because it doesn’t matter anyway.

John Jantsch (16:41.528)

So was there a moment for you, Mayer, that you could describe where you decided it’s so clear curiosity is the missing piece? mean, was it the data that kind of flipped the switch for you?

Debra Clary (16:53.689)

Well, my hypothesis started in it was in a two week time period, three things happened to me that I think was like just a message coming to me to explore this. One was I was in Rome and I was sitting next to an Italian man and he said, you’re American. I go, yeah. He said, I got the best American joke for you. What do you get when you ask an American a question? You get an answer.

John Jantsch (17:15.756)

Ha ha.

Debra Clary (17:20.173)

Right now I was a polite American. nodded, but I didn’t get the joke. Right. Then I went back to work. sitting next to my CEO in the boardroom and he is watching and listening to someone present and he quietly says to me, do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? And at the end of that week, Gallup released their report around low engagement. And it was there that I just became.

John Jantsch (17:20.366)

You

Debra Clary (17:45.186)

you know, profoundly sad, but also clearer on, I think I want to go do more research on curiosity. And so I did a little bit of literature search, and then I realized there’s not enough data for me to actually go out into the world and tell people this is the greatest thing. This is, this will solve all your problems. And that’s where it came from. He is just in that short window of hearing what’s missing in America or what’s missing in organizations.

John Jantsch (18:13.144)

So I’m curious, is there a question that you maybe wake up and ask yourself every day that sort of starts your curiosity journey?

Debra Clary (18:23.437)

Well, I start off with this, just this notion of, you know, abundance flows to me, like great things are going to happen to me. I start off with that mindset because when I wake up, I’m typically negative. Something has hit me or something from yesterday and I have to say to myself, no, I have the mindset of, have this amazing opportunity to share with people the power of curiosity. And so that’s how I start my day with the mindset of I may have an opportunity to impact others.

John Jantsch (18:54.114)

So talking to leaders, is there a practice again? Because I’m sure what happens to a lot of them is you get going, you got this meeting, you’re just like the pace picks up all day long. Is there any kind of curiosity practice that every leader could adopt or should adopt that would really get them in the right frame of mind?

Debra Clary (19:11.245)

Yeah, it’s about, I have a couple of suggestions. One is, know, listen more than you talk. So that means you’re asking good questions and then you’re the key is you’re listening. The next thing is, is when somebody asks you a question, say, I don’t know, or I might know, but I’d love to have a conversation about it in the sense of what you’re inviting people in.

You’re saying I’m vulnerable, I don’t have all the answers, but together maybe we can explore this. And that’s where I begin with my leadership and when I’m working with my teams and then the teams that are in organizations.

John Jantsch (19:51.116)

Awesome. And the curiosity curve assessment is, I assume, is found on your website. And anybody can take that? Yeah.

Debra Clary (19:57.422)

You can find it on my website, as well as you can find it in my book, which is found on amazon.com. It’s called the curiosity curve.

John Jantsch (20:05.902)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Is there any where else you’d invite people to connect with you or again, find out more about the resources you have to offer? I think it’s just deborahclary.com. Is that right?

Debra Clary (20:18.925)

DebraClary.com and on my website I have multiple articles that have been published in the last year all around the topic of curiosity and how curiosity will save us.

John Jantsch (20:28.942)

Well, there’s a banner for you. Again, Deborah, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Debra Clary (20:36.929)

All right, thank you, John.

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